Casualties in the Cafeteria--The Evidence Mounts
starviego
(2/23/02)
In my opinion, most of the available evidence indicates that two teams of shooters, numbering two to three gunmen in each, attacked both the library and the cafeteria more or less at the same time. They threw pipe bombs and fired-off a lot of gunshots. Yet we are made to believe that some 22 people(not including H&K) suffered gunshot wounds while in the library, while not ONE person was so much as grazed by a shotgun pellet while down in the cafeteria/commons.
But I believe enough eyewitness accounts have arisen that conclusively show that there were indeed gunshot-induced casualties in that area:
1) Vanessa Grimes(pg3212) sees the glass explode and a boy inside the cafeteria falling backward, perhaps consistent with a shot from outside.
2) Matt Depew(pg2826) hears a gunshot from outside and sees a sitting male student stand and fall back, as if shot.
3) Ashley Heesch(see Dottenwhy, pg2892) sees a suspect shoot person 'in the cafeteria area'.
4) Lisa Forgen(pg3005) sees a gunman running back and forth in the serving line. "He shot kids in the crowd."
5) Motorcycle cop Paul Smoker(Westword 4-12-01), according to his statement, didn't fire on Harris at the west doors until after a "whole slew of kids ran out the cafeteria; numerous had gunshots, bleeding all over the place". He may have meant library, but he said cafeteria.
6) Hidden in the kitchen storage closet with numerous others, Matt Depew reaches Denver PD Officer Lietz on his cell phone and tells him the gunmen are shooting students "right at that moment". Lietz said it sounded as though the suspects were "re-shooting" anyone down to ensure they were dead.
7) J u s t i n Cozart(pg2775) sees the shooters. "They fired numerous shots toward the west end of the cafeteria.... I saw them look under tables and fire several shots." That mimics very closely the behavior of the library shooters.
8 ) Elizabeth Nolan(pg3920) sees a student get shot while coming up the stairwell. A teacher told her he would go back and get him.
9) Adam Foss(pg4927) sees Mr. Sanders coming up the stairs, bleeding. On his way out of the school with the police, he says he stepped over a dead body. His exit route put him through the cafeteria.
10) Same with Amber Rosetta(pg4242), who says she ran past three bodies on her way out of the school.
11) Jon Vandermark(see Arricelli, pg3118 ) says he saw three or four bodies on the stairs as he ran from the building at approximately 14:15 - 14:50 hours.
12) At the bottom of Catherine Brantz's statement(pg4863) is written "Observed victims in cafeteria upon exiting during rescue".
and finally....
13) Zach Cartaya told People Weekly(5-3-99) "We walked out of the rear of the auditorium, and as we were leaving there we saw bodies in the commons. I saw like five. They looked like young kids...."
So who could the casualties have been, if you accept my premise? A possible clue comes from the Denver Post of 6-13-00. It gives a blow-by-blow account of H&K's alleged movements through the school and who they shot and where they were gunned down. The chronology of the killings ends in the library with words to the effect of(I'm working from my notes here):
'And then Kyle Velasquez, John Tomlin, Steve Curnow, Kelly Fleming, and Daniel Mauser were shot and killed'.
No detail at all. It sounds like the investigators were still trying to work them into the storyline but couldn't quite figure out how to do it. Even when I read it then it sounded suspicious. So I'd look at those names real carefully when you read through the library accounts.
"Let the Truth be out, and let the chips fall where they may"
mama4paws
(2/23/02)
I agree with you! I know a person not on your list who was in the cafeteria on 4-20-99 and this person swears that Dave Sanders was first shot in the Cafeteria and then ran up the stairs! They will not speak out because others who do so are harassed along with their families.
This person also said they saw 3 gunmen.. They saw one in one place and 2 in another at the same time. This person NEVER SAW Eric or Dylan in the area were the duffle bag was placed.
~~Mama~~
cryingcure
(2/24/02)
I also think that there were more casulties that they said there were. I mean, how could've they shot off all them bullets and not kill more than 13 and injure more than (can't remember, sorry)
It doesn't add up
My memory is a little rusty right now so sorry if I get thing's wrong. From what I remember 10 people were killed by e&d in the library, all point blank right? Leaving 3 they killed elsewhere.
Witnesses said that e&d seemed to just be shooting at anything as they went on, only injuring others and hitting nothing except walls. Then you hav other people stsating how they were walking over bodies in the hallways as they were being lead out by SWAT? From what they say the hallways and stairs were filled with bodies, but only 13 were actually killed? It doesn't make sense?
I know somethig like this can traumatize a person and make them get the facts mixed up, BUT, when you are traumatized by something like this it's hard to forget and I believe those people who said they were walking over odies saw what they saw.
FactQuest
(2/25/02)
Good research, sv.
I'm leaning toward two groups of shooters myself. One in the cafe, one at the West main entrance, simultaneously.
The names of the possible cafeteria casualties is interesting. I already had suspicions about Kyle, and even that is still far from proven.
My biggest problem with the cafeteria attack team theory - deciding which door they came in. Some report the door by the teacher's lounge, others report the doors by the Rebel Store. I guess it could even be both.
bashfulblonde2001
(2/25/02)
I thought that girl Anne Maria Holchafter was injured by shrapnel in the cafeteria. I also thought Dave Sanders was shot in the cafeteria too Donna. From what I remember, of the surveillance tape.He was motioning and directing kids out of the line of gunfire. Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought that was him.
FactQuest
(2/25/02)
Anne Marie was shot outside, according to the witnesses I've read. Here are a couple...
Crystal Archuleta 2365 (note the ID)
Mary Baribeau 2402 (note the lack of ID)
And, here are some of the witnesses I found who saw Mr. Sanders shot.
Nathan Vanderau 4683 sees Mr. Sanders in cafe, injured arm
Elisha Encinias 2943 (at the top of the inside stairs, note, she also saw more than 2 shooters)
Adam Foss 4927 in "choir" hallway, Sanders shot in leg
starviego
(2/26/02)
FQ: I believe gunmen entered both the NW cafeteria doors and also through the South Student entrace.
Bryan Fusilier(pg3067), Braden Pollard(pg4092), Brock Rembold(pg4177), and Lauren Tocci(pg4630) either saw or were under the impression that gunmen entered via the NW doors, which probably started a general panic reaction resulting in a mass exodus to the east side of the cafeteria.
Mary Campbell(pg2625), PO Lietz(pg2836), and Lacey Smith(pg4465) either saw or were under the impression that gunmen entered the South Student entrance. Look at most of the 3D cafteria maps in this section and they have a big fat arrow preprinted on the page indicating a South Student entrance for the gunmen.
At any rate, the cafeteria-first gunmen entry theory was the official police version of events for the first six months or so of the investigation.
kestrel58
(2/26/02)
Name me one witness who says he/she was shot in [not near] the cafeteria, either in the 11,000+ pages, or anywhere else. [God, I sound like Nate.] Then maybe I'll consider the possibility.
FactQuest
(2/27/02)
Hi kestrel, good to see you back.
You raise a valid point.
The most likely candidate to have been shot was Sanders, who tragically could not be interviewed.
This whole scenario is highly speculative, true. But, the above witnesses' statements leave some room. The propane tank bomb, the missing minutes on the tape, the many conflicting eyewitness accounts, the time discrepancy on Rachel's receipt AFTER the correction by LE, the apparent simultaneous-ness of the shooting at the West entrance and cafeteria, and the questions around LE's activity in the cafeteria all point to something.
That somebody came into the cafeteria while many students were still in there seems certain. That this person fired some shots seems certain. Who came in, how many came in, where he/they came in, who if anyone was shot is all less certain. But, if a shooter fired off several rounds, as many witnesses describe, how is it that no one was hit? That's like shooting fish in a barrel - how could he have missed? That is, if he was shooting real bullets.
pxine
(2/27/02)
Speaking of missing interviews, I know I have mentioned this before, but it has been awhile. And I haven't been able to find anything.
Jay Gallentine (Building Custodian); (pgs. 12,242 - 12,243):
Gallentine said it was his habit to walk through the cafeteria at the commencement of each class period.......Gallantine did note, however, that on April 20, 1999, a student who had been assigned community service was in the cafeteria helping to sweep the floor and wipe down tables and may have seen something. Gallentine does not know the student's name.
Does anyone know who this student was? Is there an interview?
FactQuest
(2/28/02 8:25:05 am)
Even if no one was killed in the cafeteria, how many were injured? And I don't mean the critically injured only, the number that the media counted. I mean the full number. Over a hundred, wasn't it? How many of them were injured in the cafeteria? Why is that number so hard to pin down?
Something really really squirrelly is going on with the facts around the cafeteria. What facts, exactly, do we know?
We have H&K on video, coming down the inside stairs, shooting toward the center of the cafeteria, setting off a large fire.
There are several minutes missing from this video tape. 11:14:36am to 11:22:22am.
During this interval, the duffel bags reportedly containing the propane tank bombs are placed.
And, according to some sources that I don't have a reference to, but I see posted here a lot as fact, at least one of these bombs was set to go off at 11:17. The only witness I've found that saw one of the duffel bags containing a propane bomb was Sarah Slater (4440).
And, the beginning of the video restarting just happens to exactly coincide with the commencement of shooting, which officially began at 11:22:23am, according to JeffCo.
No wait, it officially started at 11:19, with H&K shooting from the top of the hill toward the West entrance. Well, see, right off we have JeffCo contradicting themselves. And, if it was 11:19, between 2 and 2.5 minutes elapsed from the start of shooting before the beginning of the taping, and just when the taping begins is when anyone in the cafeteria notices something going on outside.
I've become extremely skeptical that the missing 8 minutes had anything to do with changing the tapes. And highly suspicious it has everything to do with concealing who put those bombs there. Its just waaaay too convenient how the tape starts up just exactly when the action starts.
My alternatively proposed scenario has H&K and the white T bomber at the top of the hill, then entering thru the West entrance. Who was running up and down the stairs? The witnesses are quite conflicted on this. Some say Klebold, some say Harris, some say Redacted, a Redacted that looked a lot like Klebold. I lean toward Klebold. I can't dismiss Jessica Brown's (2541) reporting of Alex Marsh saying "Hey, there's Dylan!" Alex would know, better than most.
But, my belief that the stair-runner being Klebold does not mean I don't think Redacted was there. I do. I think this Redacted, and at least one other trench-coated shooter, entered the cafeteria thru the NW entrance by the teachers lounge. And sprayed the room with bullets, as reported by several witnesses. And this occurred while H&K were entering the West entrance. As in Chris Thierren's (1207) account.
Now, did the cameras get this shooting on tape? Not to my knowledge. I don't have the tape, so please correct me where I am wrong, but I think that the tape did not record anybody shooting from near any of the doors.
Yet, we have so may witnesses who saw cafe shooters.
West:
Sean Hooker 3356
Brian Fuselier 3067
Brittany Gillette 3137
Sarah Slater 4435
Nathan Vanderau 4677
South:
Nada Alami 2286
Adam Kyler 246
Placement unknown, at least from my notes:
Melinda Gattoni 3108
Shane Krey 5905
JeffCo claims this was Klebold, coming in briefly at the NW entrance.
Well, fine, except they claim he did not shoot. And, they place this brief entry before the shooting of Anne Marie. But, reading a couple of witnesses, the cafeteria was calm until after Anne Marie was shot. (Mary Baribeau, 2402) Someone came into the cafeteria to get help for Anne Marie - the cafe was still apparently oblivious to the shootings. If Klebold came in before that and shot into the crowd, then the crowd would not be still sitting there.
No, if Klebold came in and peeked into the cafe at that time, as JeffCo claims, this was not the shooter these witnesses saw. Odd, too, how JeffCo places this peeking in event just prior to the tape commencing, at around 11:21.
I can't find any witnesses that decribe him stepping in briefly without shooting. Okay, Sean Hooker (3356) maybe.
So, why is this in the official story? Was it on the part of the tape they claim does not exist, but they forgot to scrub it out of the timeline?
Or, is it to account for the cafeteria shooter as described by so many witnesses? If so, it fails miserably, and leaves the cafeteria shooter completely unexplained.
Now - there is the matter of the tape. If the shooters came in after the tape was rolling, why aren't they on the tape?
There are many possible explanations.
1) the shooters knew the cycles on the cameras, and knew how to time their attack and/or where to stand and/or could tell by looking at the little red light when it was "on" (if there was a red light). It could have even been the same shooters at both entrances, running around outside to time their attacks with the cameras.
2) the shooters just got lucky.
3) a dozen corroborating witnesses were confused.
4) the FBI lab scrubbed out the evidence of these shooters.
I lean toward #1. JeffCo went with #3.
And I realize that I've rambled long enough for one post.
starviego
(2/28/02)
Crying Cure: FYI, I count about 21 students wounded by pellets/bullets.
Kestral: FQ is correct--you've got a darn good point there. After all, in the library where you had many dead you also had people who were heavily wounded who couldn't leave, plus a number of lightly wounded who were able to walk out. So we should see the same pattern in the cafeteria. I suspect that the truth lies in the missing interviews. How many people were in the cafeteria versus how many were in the cafeteria and whose interviews made it to the 11K. Despite repeated requests to CRTF, I still don't have the new password needed to access the archives so I can count the number of interviewed cafeteria witnesses(from pg2274 to pg483 . Compare this number to how many were supposed to have been in the cafeteria--up to 500 or something like that?
FQ: You raise an interesting point: if they were "shooting real bullets". A few references I've come across suggests that paintball guns were being shot off instead of real rounds. On the other hand at least one eyewitness on the stairwell recalled hearing pinging sounds on the metal guardrails, and others mentioned flying bits of plaster/drywall and concrete chips in this area. Why weren't they caught on the video tapes?--I lean toward scenario #4 on your list.
Pxine: Are you referring to student Trent Karnes? See pg912.
starviego
(6/4/02)
Herewith a few more references to casualties in the cafeteria:
14) Al Marton, Campus Supervisor(997):
"Marton stated he did observe male student exiting the lower level of the cafeteria by the service door, grab his leg as he exited the door, and exited into the parking lot, believing that the individual had been shot."
(See also FQ's post "Which student was shot in the hip?" on the last page of the current archives)
15) Nathan Anema(2347):
Describes seeing blood in the commons area on the way out.
16) Kami Vest(5127):
"The SWAT team escorted her and the other students(from the choir room) out through the commons area. This is where she remembers seeing two bodies lying on the ground."
17) Cindy Hoffman, English Teacher(5171):
Talked to cafeteria eyewitnesses in Clement Park who explained to her "that they had seen students being shot and saw people with guns."
18 ) Adam Linnebur(5914):
"Linnebur said he looked into the Commons/Cafeteria area and saw who he thought he recognized as Dylan standing in the cafeteria.... "Dylan" appeared to be "spraying" his shots around the room in a downward direction, at the students hiding under the tables. Linnebur thought he had seen one of the students in the cafeteria that had been shot as the boy's shirt was bloody near his kidney area."
19) Stephen Partridge(5945):
Q: Did you see anyone who was hurt or injured?
A: No-one, as far as I know the majority were in "commons"(sic).
20) Littleton FD-EMS timeline at 13:25(1:25pm)(7846):
"Update from JeffCo dispatch: in commons area one teacher dead, eight injured, two critical."
21) Littleton FD-EMS timeline at 16:34(7848 ) :
Medical team "entering the cafeteria for pronouncements of all victims."
22) Fire Department 911 tape(7873):
Caller>"Cathy?"
Caller>(screaming in background)
Caller>"They just shot somebody inside the cafeteria"
23) Capt Gene Nagle(FD)(7956):
"A paramedic, Troy Layman with Denver Health, went in the lower level with a SWAT team to check for victims. Troy stayed in contact with us via portable radio. Troy advised that he had checked several individuals that were dead."
24) Officer Wayne Depew(7996):
"...stated while they were in route(away from the school) one of the adult victims stated the shooters had killed all the kids in the cafeteria. Depew stated he was devastated because that is where his son had told him he was at." (Depew's son was in phone contact with DPD Lietz, I assume his son 'told' him secondhand)
25) Greg Moen, Metro SWAT(8415):
"I assisted with the second sweep. During the second sweep I observed several victims who were DOA, mostly inside the cafeteria. I also observed shell casings and empty 9mm magazines in the hallway near the cafeteria."
26) Greg Slater, Lakewood PD(8641):
Sees blood-stained carpeting in cafeteria area.
starviego
(6/4/02)
27) Mary Campbell(8679):
"She saw this suspect run to the stairs and shoot people as they were going up the stairs." (meaning inside cafeteria stairs)
28 ) D. Stevens, Arvada PD(8895):
"Specifically D. Bacca(Littleton PD) told IO(Arvada D. Stevens) that their intelligence information was that currently at approximately 1315 hours, they believed that there was an unknown number of people inside the commons area of Columbine High School. Many of these people appeared to be injured, two of which appeared to be critical injuries."
29) Joey Marcotte(9029):
Is in the eastern end of the cafeteria-"...they were laughing as they threw bombs and shot people."
30) Brooke Skinner and Page Allison(9063):
Saw two students wounded in the science area and two more in the cafeteria area.
31) From Handwritten List of "Students Rescued"(9163):
"Lower Commons Area (8 stud?)-2 critical"
"Let the Truth be out, and let the chips fall where they may"
FactQuest
(6/4/02)
Nice list.
The evidence of a significant coverup in the cafeteria continues to mount.
Roshan Lamyre
(6/5/02 2:04:11 pm)
Alrighty then.
I think it was Motley Crew who sang the song with the chorus "round and round". Kinda like this site.
Time to start digging up the missing cafeteria wounded whose families don't think enough of thier kids to step up to the plate and go to bat for them. We hear from the families of the seriously wounded as well as the kids who were wounded and survived, but for some reason, your cafeteria wounded just don't feel the need to say anything at all. How about this... E&D start shooting OUTSIDE and the kids in the cafeteria run the other way, hence the absence of your wanted wounded.
Yet, if there were two 'teams' of shooters and one started in the cafeteria (which had some 500 kids in it) why couldn't they hit the broad side of a barn? And why don't we see kids getting shot up on the video cameras?
But if it makes you feel better to sift through the hundreds on kids looking for their fifteen minutes of fame then by all means have fun. If it adds a sense of purpose to your life then so be it.
starviego
(6/5/02)
If the references to casualties in the cafeteria were few in number, and matched by equal numbers of references to casualties in other, random parts of the school I would say you have something, Roshan.
But just like the IOs in Dealey Plaza could never quite explain why all the eyewitnesses were 'mistaken' in precisely the same fashion-i.e., they all heard extra gunshots from the same place, the grassy knoll-so also have I heard NO convincing explanation as to why most of the references to out-of-place casualties origonate in the same place--the cafeteria.
Do you at least concede that the official story is wrong about their theory of an initial, brief entry by a non-shooting Klebold? As FQ pointed out above, if you buy into their version you have to explain why so many MORE eye and ear witnesses reported shots/gunmen INSIDE the cafeteria very early into the attack(and I could add many names to FQ's list). And you have to explain why many earwitnesses both in the cafeteria and the library heard simaultaneous screams/gunshots in the other area WHILE they were under attack.
And if you've gone that far(conceding the presense of a least one gunman shooting in the cafe), why would a shooter enter the commons and deliberately shoot to miss, in direct contradiction to the acts outside the west entrance and in the library?
The "casualties in the cafeteria" theory wasn't just built on the 30-odd references above--it is a natural progression from the "more than 2 shooters" theory and thence the "simultaneous attacks" theory and subsequently to the "bodies being moved" theory.
Why don't we see the tapes of the cafeteria attack? Because the gunmen don't look very much like H&K, that's why.
Where are the interviews of the cafeteria wounded? I don't know, maybe they haven't been released yet, maybe they have been, in grossly altered form. Compare the 11K and the El Paso interviews. Same person interiviewed--with a huge difference is page number!!! Randy also pointed that out QUITE well in a post of a couple weeks ago. THERE ARE STILL LOADS OF MISSING INTERVIEWS!!
Think about it-- if you're going to drop, say, 2000 pages of eyewitness testimony, are you going to drop the stuff that supports your official theory, or the stuff that goes against it? The answere is obvious, isn't it?
As far as your allusion to "fifteen minutes of fame" amongst the student eyewitnesses listed above, are you claiming that motive also for the many quotes from police/ems/fd?(see list of references)
My gut feeling is that the two "critical" wounded (mentioned above in 20, 28, and 31) in the cafeteria were moved to the area of the library and allowed to die(though not necessarily in that order).
Shocked?
You shouldn't be, because that's EXACTLY what happened to Dave Sanders!!!!
FactQuest
(6/6/02)
Hey sv,
Don't let Rosh get you down.
He's hopelessly married to the official version, despite its huge number of proved and well documented errors.
But, I've enjoyed his critiques - his response is going to be what most any normal man-on-the-street with above-average intelligence is going to think about what we say.
If you can't convince him, you are not likely to convince the majority of people.
The video is the hardest piece to overcome here.
If there were no video, we would have a much stronger case - the eyewitnesses "advantage" is overwhelming.
But, the video does not show the shooter that all those witnesses saw.
And, the video does not show any casualties, much less any casualties being moved around.
Now, is there any *physical* evidence for the extra schooters in the cafeteria? Yes - the bullet holes/marks on the walls. But can all of them be accounted for my the known H&K actions? I can't say.
So, we are left with advocating that the FBI or someone *altered* the video tape. Or with some amazing timing, by design or accident, of the rotation of the camera views. Or both.
I know you're position, sv - that the tape was indeed altered. If it helps, CRTF agrees. I think - at very the least - the missing few minutes was cut out intentionally to cover up who placed the propane tank bombs.
But, without something more, MOST people are going to have a hard time swallowing the FBI altering that tape to hide people and stuff.
Whether it actually happened or not.
Roshan Lamyre
(6/6/02 2:04:49 pm)
I am not!
Actually;
Contrary to what mr. factquest believes I am not married to the 'official' version but I do believe that it is a bit closer to the truth than a large majority of the ideas that spring up here.
So far, no one has come forward proclaiming to have been shot or injured by anyone other than E or D. There are plenty of 'witnesses' who 'claim' to have seen other shooters, there just aren't any victims that can be attributed to those shooters. We have little to know real physical evidence to prove the existence of anyone other than the two we know of, other than the heresay statements of witnesses.
So, no physical proof and a bunch of physically empty statements. Videos that CLEARLY show E&D in the cafeteria but not ONE picture of any other suspects. The students in the cafeteria can be seen looking out the windows towards ERIC HARRIS and DYLAN KLEBOLD and not one picture of them running from anyone BUT ERIC HARRIS and DYLAN KLEBOLD.
Like I have said for the past three years that I have been posting on this site, if you can come up with some mysterious evidence, that not one other person on the planet can seem to find, that will prove the existence of your phantom shooters, I will tend to say that while i think the official version is lacking in some facts, it is closer to reality than a lot of the ideas that sprout up here.
eanelson2000
(6/6/02)
Where the residents don't notice a few of their own missing.
Roshan, you can't be so lonely as to believe that the report is the closest thing to the truth and yet visit here on and off for so long. Whatever happened to that sword of truth that you were going to wield.
I still say that a more than two person shooter theory suggests one of two possibilities. 1. Hidden casualties and extra shooters or supressed eyewitness/medical records or 2. Individuals that were sympathetic to the anti-jock culture running around and acting like deranged psychos right up until they realized that Harris and Klebold were actually killing people. Hence, why they weren't around when swat showed up and why no GSR was on their hands. They weren't using real guns. A pet theory of mine. Without a confession this is next to impossible to prove. We have no surveillance tape. We have sketchy eyewitness testimony that people who are studying for that elusive criminal justice major have been quick to point out could be the result of shock. We have no GSR. Blood and hair evidence won't matter. Imagine, "I can place you at the school at the time of the shooting." Student, "Really, fuk you found out that I was in the school that I was enrolled in at the time of the incident... wow I knew those 11,000 pages of documents would be the end of me. Curses and a pox on the CRTF board." Or better still, "No, I cut school that day to set diversionary boms and had a friend sign me in."
Are any of the civil suits active. Has anyone tried to get tape produced as evidence of notice to the parents?
Erik
Mika
(6/9/02)
Quote:
My gut feeling is that the two "critical" wounded (mentioned above in 20, 28, and 31) in the cafeteria were moved to the area of the library and allowed to die(though not necessarily in that order).
By whom and why would someone have done that?
Author Comment
starviego
(6/9/02)
Roshan:
Numerous eyewitness IDs of shooters other than H&K cannot be considered "hearsay"--they are instead first hand accounts that would be admissable in a court of law.
As far as what the cafeteria students on the videotape saw, you're ASSUMING that they were looking at and then running from H&K--they don't actually appear on the videotape until later.
eanelson2000:
The only civil suit still active as far as I know is Angela Sanders' lawsuit against JeffCo(for letting her dad die) and possibly a lawsuit against the makers of the drug Luvox by some of the parents.
Mika:
I don't know WHO did it--but the ATF and the FBI are good suspects. WHY?-Because they didn't want any witnesses saying they were shot while they were in the cafeteria.
Ever notice how long it took the victims to be rescued? Anne Marie Hochalter, Lance Kirklin, and Sean Graves weren't rescued until about noon. That's almost three-quarters of an hour AFTER they received their wounds. Castaldo didn't make it to a hospital until one and three-quarter hours AFTER he was shot. Don't you get the feeling that the cops were not overly concerned if the wounded lived or not?
Mika
(6/9/02)
If someone indeed did move them, that wouldn't take away any eye witness account's saying that there were people shot in the commons. I really don't see your point here. Maybe i'm just slow (wouldn't be the first time).
And no i don't think that the cops didn't care whether people were wounded or dead, i believe that the place was totally ripped apart and everyone was confused (except for E&D maybe). I'm not saying that the LE didn't make any mistakes that day but i just don't like to believe that all the things LE did that day was bad or wrong. There's a fine saying about conspiracy theories that i heard on a TV show once: Just because one particular action or case might be a cover up doesn't mean that every single case or action made ever since is a cover up. Just because the JFK assassination might be a cover up, the mid-air explosion of TWA800 doesn't have to be. And so on. It's good to think about this sometimes when you'r about to jump the gun. But as i said, it's possible and it even seems like the LE made big mistakes at columbine and then tried to cover them up. Hopefully time and thurough investigations will tell the truth.
-----------------------------------
starviego
(6/9/02)
Mika:
Sorry for the confusion. What I was referring to was the two critically wounded mentioned above-IF they were allowed to die(by refusing to allow medical units onto the scene), that would have been two less eyewitnesses to casualties in the cafeteria.
Alarmist:
It has been my position since the beginning that the Columbine massacre was the result of a pre-planned operation by some rogue intelligence operatives--it has the handprints of a professional covert action all over it.
starviego
(2/23/02)
In my opinion, most of the available evidence indicates that two teams of shooters, numbering two to three gunmen in each, attacked both the library and the cafeteria more or less at the same time. They threw pipe bombs and fired-off a lot of gunshots. Yet we are made to believe that some 22 people(not including H&K) suffered gunshot wounds while in the library, while not ONE person was so much as grazed by a shotgun pellet while down in the cafeteria/commons.
But I believe enough eyewitness accounts have arisen that conclusively show that there were indeed gunshot-induced casualties in that area:
1) Vanessa Grimes(pg3212) sees the glass explode and a boy inside the cafeteria falling backward, perhaps consistent with a shot from outside.
2) Matt Depew(pg2826) hears a gunshot from outside and sees a sitting male student stand and fall back, as if shot.
3) Ashley Heesch(see Dottenwhy, pg2892) sees a suspect shoot person 'in the cafeteria area'.
4) Lisa Forgen(pg3005) sees a gunman running back and forth in the serving line. "He shot kids in the crowd."
5) Motorcycle cop Paul Smoker(Westword 4-12-01), according to his statement, didn't fire on Harris at the west doors until after a "whole slew of kids ran out the cafeteria; numerous had gunshots, bleeding all over the place". He may have meant library, but he said cafeteria.
6) Hidden in the kitchen storage closet with numerous others, Matt Depew reaches Denver PD Officer Lietz on his cell phone and tells him the gunmen are shooting students "right at that moment". Lietz said it sounded as though the suspects were "re-shooting" anyone down to ensure they were dead.
7) J u s t i n Cozart(pg2775) sees the shooters. "They fired numerous shots toward the west end of the cafeteria.... I saw them look under tables and fire several shots." That mimics very closely the behavior of the library shooters.
8 ) Elizabeth Nolan(pg3920) sees a student get shot while coming up the stairwell. A teacher told her he would go back and get him.
9) Adam Foss(pg4927) sees Mr. Sanders coming up the stairs, bleeding. On his way out of the school with the police, he says he stepped over a dead body. His exit route put him through the cafeteria.
10) Same with Amber Rosetta(pg4242), who says she ran past three bodies on her way out of the school.
11) Jon Vandermark(see Arricelli, pg3118 ) says he saw three or four bodies on the stairs as he ran from the building at approximately 14:15 - 14:50 hours.
12) At the bottom of Catherine Brantz's statement(pg4863) is written "Observed victims in cafeteria upon exiting during rescue".
and finally....
13) Zach Cartaya told People Weekly(5-3-99) "We walked out of the rear of the auditorium, and as we were leaving there we saw bodies in the commons. I saw like five. They looked like young kids...."
So who could the casualties have been, if you accept my premise? A possible clue comes from the Denver Post of 6-13-00. It gives a blow-by-blow account of H&K's alleged movements through the school and who they shot and where they were gunned down. The chronology of the killings ends in the library with words to the effect of(I'm working from my notes here):
'And then Kyle Velasquez, John Tomlin, Steve Curnow, Kelly Fleming, and Daniel Mauser were shot and killed'.
No detail at all. It sounds like the investigators were still trying to work them into the storyline but couldn't quite figure out how to do it. Even when I read it then it sounded suspicious. So I'd look at those names real carefully when you read through the library accounts.
"Let the Truth be out, and let the chips fall where they may"
mama4paws
(2/23/02)
I agree with you! I know a person not on your list who was in the cafeteria on 4-20-99 and this person swears that Dave Sanders was first shot in the Cafeteria and then ran up the stairs! They will not speak out because others who do so are harassed along with their families.
This person also said they saw 3 gunmen.. They saw one in one place and 2 in another at the same time. This person NEVER SAW Eric or Dylan in the area were the duffle bag was placed.
~~Mama~~
cryingcure
(2/24/02)
I also think that there were more casulties that they said there were. I mean, how could've they shot off all them bullets and not kill more than 13 and injure more than (can't remember, sorry)
It doesn't add up
My memory is a little rusty right now so sorry if I get thing's wrong. From what I remember 10 people were killed by e&d in the library, all point blank right? Leaving 3 they killed elsewhere.
Witnesses said that e&d seemed to just be shooting at anything as they went on, only injuring others and hitting nothing except walls. Then you hav other people stsating how they were walking over bodies in the hallways as they were being lead out by SWAT? From what they say the hallways and stairs were filled with bodies, but only 13 were actually killed? It doesn't make sense?
I know somethig like this can traumatize a person and make them get the facts mixed up, BUT, when you are traumatized by something like this it's hard to forget and I believe those people who said they were walking over odies saw what they saw.
FactQuest
(2/25/02)
Good research, sv.
I'm leaning toward two groups of shooters myself. One in the cafe, one at the West main entrance, simultaneously.
The names of the possible cafeteria casualties is interesting. I already had suspicions about Kyle, and even that is still far from proven.
My biggest problem with the cafeteria attack team theory - deciding which door they came in. Some report the door by the teacher's lounge, others report the doors by the Rebel Store. I guess it could even be both.
bashfulblonde2001
(2/25/02)
I thought that girl Anne Maria Holchafter was injured by shrapnel in the cafeteria. I also thought Dave Sanders was shot in the cafeteria too Donna. From what I remember, of the surveillance tape.He was motioning and directing kids out of the line of gunfire. Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought that was him.
FactQuest
(2/25/02)
Anne Marie was shot outside, according to the witnesses I've read. Here are a couple...
Crystal Archuleta 2365 (note the ID)
Mary Baribeau 2402 (note the lack of ID)
And, here are some of the witnesses I found who saw Mr. Sanders shot.
Nathan Vanderau 4683 sees Mr. Sanders in cafe, injured arm
Elisha Encinias 2943 (at the top of the inside stairs, note, she also saw more than 2 shooters)
Adam Foss 4927 in "choir" hallway, Sanders shot in leg
starviego
(2/26/02)
FQ: I believe gunmen entered both the NW cafeteria doors and also through the South Student entrace.
Bryan Fusilier(pg3067), Braden Pollard(pg4092), Brock Rembold(pg4177), and Lauren Tocci(pg4630) either saw or were under the impression that gunmen entered via the NW doors, which probably started a general panic reaction resulting in a mass exodus to the east side of the cafeteria.
Mary Campbell(pg2625), PO Lietz(pg2836), and Lacey Smith(pg4465) either saw or were under the impression that gunmen entered the South Student entrance. Look at most of the 3D cafteria maps in this section and they have a big fat arrow preprinted on the page indicating a South Student entrance for the gunmen.
At any rate, the cafeteria-first gunmen entry theory was the official police version of events for the first six months or so of the investigation.
kestrel58
(2/26/02)
Name me one witness who says he/she was shot in [not near] the cafeteria, either in the 11,000+ pages, or anywhere else. [God, I sound like Nate.] Then maybe I'll consider the possibility.
FactQuest
(2/27/02)
Hi kestrel, good to see you back.
You raise a valid point.
The most likely candidate to have been shot was Sanders, who tragically could not be interviewed.
This whole scenario is highly speculative, true. But, the above witnesses' statements leave some room. The propane tank bomb, the missing minutes on the tape, the many conflicting eyewitness accounts, the time discrepancy on Rachel's receipt AFTER the correction by LE, the apparent simultaneous-ness of the shooting at the West entrance and cafeteria, and the questions around LE's activity in the cafeteria all point to something.
That somebody came into the cafeteria while many students were still in there seems certain. That this person fired some shots seems certain. Who came in, how many came in, where he/they came in, who if anyone was shot is all less certain. But, if a shooter fired off several rounds, as many witnesses describe, how is it that no one was hit? That's like shooting fish in a barrel - how could he have missed? That is, if he was shooting real bullets.
pxine
(2/27/02)
Speaking of missing interviews, I know I have mentioned this before, but it has been awhile. And I haven't been able to find anything.
Jay Gallentine (Building Custodian); (pgs. 12,242 - 12,243):
Gallentine said it was his habit to walk through the cafeteria at the commencement of each class period.......Gallantine did note, however, that on April 20, 1999, a student who had been assigned community service was in the cafeteria helping to sweep the floor and wipe down tables and may have seen something. Gallentine does not know the student's name.
Does anyone know who this student was? Is there an interview?
FactQuest
(2/28/02 8:25:05 am)
Even if no one was killed in the cafeteria, how many were injured? And I don't mean the critically injured only, the number that the media counted. I mean the full number. Over a hundred, wasn't it? How many of them were injured in the cafeteria? Why is that number so hard to pin down?
Something really really squirrelly is going on with the facts around the cafeteria. What facts, exactly, do we know?
We have H&K on video, coming down the inside stairs, shooting toward the center of the cafeteria, setting off a large fire.
There are several minutes missing from this video tape. 11:14:36am to 11:22:22am.
During this interval, the duffel bags reportedly containing the propane tank bombs are placed.
And, according to some sources that I don't have a reference to, but I see posted here a lot as fact, at least one of these bombs was set to go off at 11:17. The only witness I've found that saw one of the duffel bags containing a propane bomb was Sarah Slater (4440).
And, the beginning of the video restarting just happens to exactly coincide with the commencement of shooting, which officially began at 11:22:23am, according to JeffCo.
No wait, it officially started at 11:19, with H&K shooting from the top of the hill toward the West entrance. Well, see, right off we have JeffCo contradicting themselves. And, if it was 11:19, between 2 and 2.5 minutes elapsed from the start of shooting before the beginning of the taping, and just when the taping begins is when anyone in the cafeteria notices something going on outside.
I've become extremely skeptical that the missing 8 minutes had anything to do with changing the tapes. And highly suspicious it has everything to do with concealing who put those bombs there. Its just waaaay too convenient how the tape starts up just exactly when the action starts.
My alternatively proposed scenario has H&K and the white T bomber at the top of the hill, then entering thru the West entrance. Who was running up and down the stairs? The witnesses are quite conflicted on this. Some say Klebold, some say Harris, some say Redacted, a Redacted that looked a lot like Klebold. I lean toward Klebold. I can't dismiss Jessica Brown's (2541) reporting of Alex Marsh saying "Hey, there's Dylan!" Alex would know, better than most.
But, my belief that the stair-runner being Klebold does not mean I don't think Redacted was there. I do. I think this Redacted, and at least one other trench-coated shooter, entered the cafeteria thru the NW entrance by the teachers lounge. And sprayed the room with bullets, as reported by several witnesses. And this occurred while H&K were entering the West entrance. As in Chris Thierren's (1207) account.
Now, did the cameras get this shooting on tape? Not to my knowledge. I don't have the tape, so please correct me where I am wrong, but I think that the tape did not record anybody shooting from near any of the doors.
Yet, we have so may witnesses who saw cafe shooters.
West:
Sean Hooker 3356
Brian Fuselier 3067
Brittany Gillette 3137
Sarah Slater 4435
Nathan Vanderau 4677
South:
Nada Alami 2286
Adam Kyler 246
Placement unknown, at least from my notes:
Melinda Gattoni 3108
Shane Krey 5905
JeffCo claims this was Klebold, coming in briefly at the NW entrance.
Well, fine, except they claim he did not shoot. And, they place this brief entry before the shooting of Anne Marie. But, reading a couple of witnesses, the cafeteria was calm until after Anne Marie was shot. (Mary Baribeau, 2402) Someone came into the cafeteria to get help for Anne Marie - the cafe was still apparently oblivious to the shootings. If Klebold came in before that and shot into the crowd, then the crowd would not be still sitting there.
No, if Klebold came in and peeked into the cafe at that time, as JeffCo claims, this was not the shooter these witnesses saw. Odd, too, how JeffCo places this peeking in event just prior to the tape commencing, at around 11:21.
I can't find any witnesses that decribe him stepping in briefly without shooting. Okay, Sean Hooker (3356) maybe.
So, why is this in the official story? Was it on the part of the tape they claim does not exist, but they forgot to scrub it out of the timeline?
Or, is it to account for the cafeteria shooter as described by so many witnesses? If so, it fails miserably, and leaves the cafeteria shooter completely unexplained.
Now - there is the matter of the tape. If the shooters came in after the tape was rolling, why aren't they on the tape?
There are many possible explanations.
1) the shooters knew the cycles on the cameras, and knew how to time their attack and/or where to stand and/or could tell by looking at the little red light when it was "on" (if there was a red light). It could have even been the same shooters at both entrances, running around outside to time their attacks with the cameras.
2) the shooters just got lucky.
3) a dozen corroborating witnesses were confused.
4) the FBI lab scrubbed out the evidence of these shooters.
I lean toward #1. JeffCo went with #3.
And I realize that I've rambled long enough for one post.
starviego
(2/28/02)
Crying Cure: FYI, I count about 21 students wounded by pellets/bullets.
Kestral: FQ is correct--you've got a darn good point there. After all, in the library where you had many dead you also had people who were heavily wounded who couldn't leave, plus a number of lightly wounded who were able to walk out. So we should see the same pattern in the cafeteria. I suspect that the truth lies in the missing interviews. How many people were in the cafeteria versus how many were in the cafeteria and whose interviews made it to the 11K. Despite repeated requests to CRTF, I still don't have the new password needed to access the archives so I can count the number of interviewed cafeteria witnesses(from pg2274 to pg483 . Compare this number to how many were supposed to have been in the cafeteria--up to 500 or something like that?
FQ: You raise an interesting point: if they were "shooting real bullets". A few references I've come across suggests that paintball guns were being shot off instead of real rounds. On the other hand at least one eyewitness on the stairwell recalled hearing pinging sounds on the metal guardrails, and others mentioned flying bits of plaster/drywall and concrete chips in this area. Why weren't they caught on the video tapes?--I lean toward scenario #4 on your list.
Pxine: Are you referring to student Trent Karnes? See pg912.
starviego
(6/4/02)
Herewith a few more references to casualties in the cafeteria:
14) Al Marton, Campus Supervisor(997):
"Marton stated he did observe male student exiting the lower level of the cafeteria by the service door, grab his leg as he exited the door, and exited into the parking lot, believing that the individual had been shot."
(See also FQ's post "Which student was shot in the hip?" on the last page of the current archives)
15) Nathan Anema(2347):
Describes seeing blood in the commons area on the way out.
16) Kami Vest(5127):
"The SWAT team escorted her and the other students(from the choir room) out through the commons area. This is where she remembers seeing two bodies lying on the ground."
17) Cindy Hoffman, English Teacher(5171):
Talked to cafeteria eyewitnesses in Clement Park who explained to her "that they had seen students being shot and saw people with guns."
18 ) Adam Linnebur(5914):
"Linnebur said he looked into the Commons/Cafeteria area and saw who he thought he recognized as Dylan standing in the cafeteria.... "Dylan" appeared to be "spraying" his shots around the room in a downward direction, at the students hiding under the tables. Linnebur thought he had seen one of the students in the cafeteria that had been shot as the boy's shirt was bloody near his kidney area."
19) Stephen Partridge(5945):
Q: Did you see anyone who was hurt or injured?
A: No-one, as far as I know the majority were in "commons"(sic).
20) Littleton FD-EMS timeline at 13:25(1:25pm)(7846):
"Update from JeffCo dispatch: in commons area one teacher dead, eight injured, two critical."
21) Littleton FD-EMS timeline at 16:34(7848 ) :
Medical team "entering the cafeteria for pronouncements of all victims."
22) Fire Department 911 tape(7873):
Caller>"Cathy?"
Caller>(screaming in background)
Caller>"They just shot somebody inside the cafeteria"
23) Capt Gene Nagle(FD)(7956):
"A paramedic, Troy Layman with Denver Health, went in the lower level with a SWAT team to check for victims. Troy stayed in contact with us via portable radio. Troy advised that he had checked several individuals that were dead."
24) Officer Wayne Depew(7996):
"...stated while they were in route(away from the school) one of the adult victims stated the shooters had killed all the kids in the cafeteria. Depew stated he was devastated because that is where his son had told him he was at." (Depew's son was in phone contact with DPD Lietz, I assume his son 'told' him secondhand)
25) Greg Moen, Metro SWAT(8415):
"I assisted with the second sweep. During the second sweep I observed several victims who were DOA, mostly inside the cafeteria. I also observed shell casings and empty 9mm magazines in the hallway near the cafeteria."
26) Greg Slater, Lakewood PD(8641):
Sees blood-stained carpeting in cafeteria area.
starviego
(6/4/02)
27) Mary Campbell(8679):
"She saw this suspect run to the stairs and shoot people as they were going up the stairs." (meaning inside cafeteria stairs)
28 ) D. Stevens, Arvada PD(8895):
"Specifically D. Bacca(Littleton PD) told IO(Arvada D. Stevens) that their intelligence information was that currently at approximately 1315 hours, they believed that there was an unknown number of people inside the commons area of Columbine High School. Many of these people appeared to be injured, two of which appeared to be critical injuries."
29) Joey Marcotte(9029):
Is in the eastern end of the cafeteria-"...they were laughing as they threw bombs and shot people."
30) Brooke Skinner and Page Allison(9063):
Saw two students wounded in the science area and two more in the cafeteria area.
31) From Handwritten List of "Students Rescued"(9163):
"Lower Commons Area (8 stud?)-2 critical"
"Let the Truth be out, and let the chips fall where they may"
FactQuest
(6/4/02)
Nice list.
The evidence of a significant coverup in the cafeteria continues to mount.
Roshan Lamyre
(6/5/02 2:04:11 pm)
Alrighty then.
I think it was Motley Crew who sang the song with the chorus "round and round". Kinda like this site.
Time to start digging up the missing cafeteria wounded whose families don't think enough of thier kids to step up to the plate and go to bat for them. We hear from the families of the seriously wounded as well as the kids who were wounded and survived, but for some reason, your cafeteria wounded just don't feel the need to say anything at all. How about this... E&D start shooting OUTSIDE and the kids in the cafeteria run the other way, hence the absence of your wanted wounded.
Yet, if there were two 'teams' of shooters and one started in the cafeteria (which had some 500 kids in it) why couldn't they hit the broad side of a barn? And why don't we see kids getting shot up on the video cameras?
But if it makes you feel better to sift through the hundreds on kids looking for their fifteen minutes of fame then by all means have fun. If it adds a sense of purpose to your life then so be it.
starviego
(6/5/02)
If the references to casualties in the cafeteria were few in number, and matched by equal numbers of references to casualties in other, random parts of the school I would say you have something, Roshan.
But just like the IOs in Dealey Plaza could never quite explain why all the eyewitnesses were 'mistaken' in precisely the same fashion-i.e., they all heard extra gunshots from the same place, the grassy knoll-so also have I heard NO convincing explanation as to why most of the references to out-of-place casualties origonate in the same place--the cafeteria.
Do you at least concede that the official story is wrong about their theory of an initial, brief entry by a non-shooting Klebold? As FQ pointed out above, if you buy into their version you have to explain why so many MORE eye and ear witnesses reported shots/gunmen INSIDE the cafeteria very early into the attack(and I could add many names to FQ's list). And you have to explain why many earwitnesses both in the cafeteria and the library heard simaultaneous screams/gunshots in the other area WHILE they were under attack.
And if you've gone that far(conceding the presense of a least one gunman shooting in the cafe), why would a shooter enter the commons and deliberately shoot to miss, in direct contradiction to the acts outside the west entrance and in the library?
The "casualties in the cafeteria" theory wasn't just built on the 30-odd references above--it is a natural progression from the "more than 2 shooters" theory and thence the "simultaneous attacks" theory and subsequently to the "bodies being moved" theory.
Why don't we see the tapes of the cafeteria attack? Because the gunmen don't look very much like H&K, that's why.
Where are the interviews of the cafeteria wounded? I don't know, maybe they haven't been released yet, maybe they have been, in grossly altered form. Compare the 11K and the El Paso interviews. Same person interiviewed--with a huge difference is page number!!! Randy also pointed that out QUITE well in a post of a couple weeks ago. THERE ARE STILL LOADS OF MISSING INTERVIEWS!!
Think about it-- if you're going to drop, say, 2000 pages of eyewitness testimony, are you going to drop the stuff that supports your official theory, or the stuff that goes against it? The answere is obvious, isn't it?
As far as your allusion to "fifteen minutes of fame" amongst the student eyewitnesses listed above, are you claiming that motive also for the many quotes from police/ems/fd?(see list of references)
My gut feeling is that the two "critical" wounded (mentioned above in 20, 28, and 31) in the cafeteria were moved to the area of the library and allowed to die(though not necessarily in that order).
Shocked?
You shouldn't be, because that's EXACTLY what happened to Dave Sanders!!!!
FactQuest
(6/6/02)
Hey sv,
Don't let Rosh get you down.
He's hopelessly married to the official version, despite its huge number of proved and well documented errors.
But, I've enjoyed his critiques - his response is going to be what most any normal man-on-the-street with above-average intelligence is going to think about what we say.
If you can't convince him, you are not likely to convince the majority of people.
The video is the hardest piece to overcome here.
If there were no video, we would have a much stronger case - the eyewitnesses "advantage" is overwhelming.
But, the video does not show the shooter that all those witnesses saw.
And, the video does not show any casualties, much less any casualties being moved around.
Now, is there any *physical* evidence for the extra schooters in the cafeteria? Yes - the bullet holes/marks on the walls. But can all of them be accounted for my the known H&K actions? I can't say.
So, we are left with advocating that the FBI or someone *altered* the video tape. Or with some amazing timing, by design or accident, of the rotation of the camera views. Or both.
I know you're position, sv - that the tape was indeed altered. If it helps, CRTF agrees. I think - at very the least - the missing few minutes was cut out intentionally to cover up who placed the propane tank bombs.
But, without something more, MOST people are going to have a hard time swallowing the FBI altering that tape to hide people and stuff.
Whether it actually happened or not.
Roshan Lamyre
(6/6/02 2:04:49 pm)
I am not!
Actually;
Contrary to what mr. factquest believes I am not married to the 'official' version but I do believe that it is a bit closer to the truth than a large majority of the ideas that spring up here.
So far, no one has come forward proclaiming to have been shot or injured by anyone other than E or D. There are plenty of 'witnesses' who 'claim' to have seen other shooters, there just aren't any victims that can be attributed to those shooters. We have little to know real physical evidence to prove the existence of anyone other than the two we know of, other than the heresay statements of witnesses.
So, no physical proof and a bunch of physically empty statements. Videos that CLEARLY show E&D in the cafeteria but not ONE picture of any other suspects. The students in the cafeteria can be seen looking out the windows towards ERIC HARRIS and DYLAN KLEBOLD and not one picture of them running from anyone BUT ERIC HARRIS and DYLAN KLEBOLD.
Like I have said for the past three years that I have been posting on this site, if you can come up with some mysterious evidence, that not one other person on the planet can seem to find, that will prove the existence of your phantom shooters, I will tend to say that while i think the official version is lacking in some facts, it is closer to reality than a lot of the ideas that sprout up here.
eanelson2000
(6/6/02)
Where the residents don't notice a few of their own missing.
Roshan, you can't be so lonely as to believe that the report is the closest thing to the truth and yet visit here on and off for so long. Whatever happened to that sword of truth that you were going to wield.
I still say that a more than two person shooter theory suggests one of two possibilities. 1. Hidden casualties and extra shooters or supressed eyewitness/medical records or 2. Individuals that were sympathetic to the anti-jock culture running around and acting like deranged psychos right up until they realized that Harris and Klebold were actually killing people. Hence, why they weren't around when swat showed up and why no GSR was on their hands. They weren't using real guns. A pet theory of mine. Without a confession this is next to impossible to prove. We have no surveillance tape. We have sketchy eyewitness testimony that people who are studying for that elusive criminal justice major have been quick to point out could be the result of shock. We have no GSR. Blood and hair evidence won't matter. Imagine, "I can place you at the school at the time of the shooting." Student, "Really, fuk you found out that I was in the school that I was enrolled in at the time of the incident... wow I knew those 11,000 pages of documents would be the end of me. Curses and a pox on the CRTF board." Or better still, "No, I cut school that day to set diversionary boms and had a friend sign me in."
Are any of the civil suits active. Has anyone tried to get tape produced as evidence of notice to the parents?
Erik
Mika
(6/9/02)
Quote:
My gut feeling is that the two "critical" wounded (mentioned above in 20, 28, and 31) in the cafeteria were moved to the area of the library and allowed to die(though not necessarily in that order).
By whom and why would someone have done that?
Author Comment
starviego
(6/9/02)
Roshan:
Numerous eyewitness IDs of shooters other than H&K cannot be considered "hearsay"--they are instead first hand accounts that would be admissable in a court of law.
As far as what the cafeteria students on the videotape saw, you're ASSUMING that they were looking at and then running from H&K--they don't actually appear on the videotape until later.
eanelson2000:
The only civil suit still active as far as I know is Angela Sanders' lawsuit against JeffCo(for letting her dad die) and possibly a lawsuit against the makers of the drug Luvox by some of the parents.
Mika:
I don't know WHO did it--but the ATF and the FBI are good suspects. WHY?-Because they didn't want any witnesses saying they were shot while they were in the cafeteria.
Ever notice how long it took the victims to be rescued? Anne Marie Hochalter, Lance Kirklin, and Sean Graves weren't rescued until about noon. That's almost three-quarters of an hour AFTER they received their wounds. Castaldo didn't make it to a hospital until one and three-quarter hours AFTER he was shot. Don't you get the feeling that the cops were not overly concerned if the wounded lived or not?
Mika
(6/9/02)
If someone indeed did move them, that wouldn't take away any eye witness account's saying that there were people shot in the commons. I really don't see your point here. Maybe i'm just slow (wouldn't be the first time).
And no i don't think that the cops didn't care whether people were wounded or dead, i believe that the place was totally ripped apart and everyone was confused (except for E&D maybe). I'm not saying that the LE didn't make any mistakes that day but i just don't like to believe that all the things LE did that day was bad or wrong. There's a fine saying about conspiracy theories that i heard on a TV show once: Just because one particular action or case might be a cover up doesn't mean that every single case or action made ever since is a cover up. Just because the JFK assassination might be a cover up, the mid-air explosion of TWA800 doesn't have to be. And so on. It's good to think about this sometimes when you'r about to jump the gun. But as i said, it's possible and it even seems like the LE made big mistakes at columbine and then tried to cover them up. Hopefully time and thurough investigations will tell the truth.
-----------------------------------
starviego
(6/9/02)
Mika:
Sorry for the confusion. What I was referring to was the two critically wounded mentioned above-IF they were allowed to die(by refusing to allow medical units onto the scene), that would have been two less eyewitnesses to casualties in the cafeteria.
Alarmist:
It has been my position since the beginning that the Columbine massacre was the result of a pre-planned operation by some rogue intelligence operatives--it has the handprints of a professional covert action all over it.
